Comments for Ephemeris http://blog.saarang.org The Saarang 2010 blog Sun, 24 Jan 2010 15:12:25 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 Comment on Online Debate Topic 1 by George http://blog.saarang.org/online-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-206 George Sun, 24 Jan 2010 15:12:25 +0000 http://blog.saarang.org/?page_id=42#comment-206 What are we tryin to prove??India the next Tech Hub of the world??.The world knows it and people of US who work for IT companies know it extra well about their Indian colleagues.Lets assume that the project is successful,and the 700 million people have an identity,will they be able to get what they deserve just by showing this card.At the end of he day its the bureaucrats who have failed time and again to put more strict laws in place and have been barriers for Govt funds reaching the people.A lot has been debated about the technical aspects of the project,biometrics,Database and so on ,do we really know what the aam admi needs and will all the issues be addressed with this UID. On a lighter note ,the funds needed for the project are also being addressed as mentioned above by Medha.Instead of breaking our heads as to how to keep the cash flowing,let one form of it be the Tax amount or the black money collected from the political bigwigs.This will certainly solve 10% of cash of money issues. What are we tryin to prove??India the next Tech Hub of the world??.The world knows it and people of US who work for IT companies know it extra well about their Indian colleagues.Lets assume that the project is successful,and the 700 million people have an identity,will they be able to get what they deserve just by showing this card.At the end of he day its the bureaucrats who have failed time and again to put more strict laws in place and have been barriers for Govt funds reaching the people.A lot has been debated about the technical aspects of the project,biometrics,Database and so on ,do we really know what the aam admi needs and will all the issues be addressed with this UID.

On a lighter note ,the funds needed for the project are also being addressed as mentioned above by Medha.Instead of breaking our heads as to how to keep the cash flowing,let one form of it be the Tax amount or the black money collected from the political bigwigs.This will certainly solve 10% of cash of money issues.

]]> Comment on Online Debate Topic 1 by Suresh Jagennathan http://blog.saarang.org/online-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-179 Suresh Jagennathan Sun, 17 Jan 2010 21:27:14 +0000 http://blog.saarang.org/?page_id=42#comment-179 We need to do this project , if only to prove to ourselves, that we can do such a massive project.Why should we constantly compare ourselves to UK or USA that if they cannot do this , then we cannot do this. I dont want to be emotional but I believe India should now aspire to do what we think is in our interests , the bigger the better. If we fail once in a while , so be it! We need to do this project , if only to prove to ourselves, that we can do such a massive project.Why should we constantly compare ourselves to UK or USA that if they cannot do this , then we cannot do this. I dont want to be emotional but I believe India should now aspire to do what we think is in our interests , the bigger the better. If we fail once in a while , so be it!

]]> Comment on Online Debate Topic 2 by Ashok K.Dhar http://blog.saarang.org/online-debate-topic-2/comment-page-1/#comment-178 Ashok K.Dhar Sat, 16 Jan 2010 20:22:36 +0000 http://blog.saarang.org/online-debate-topic-2/#comment-178 I like the detailed arguments that both of you have. Keep up the good work. I like the detailed arguments that both of you have. Keep up the good work.

]]> Comment on Online Debate Topic 1 by Vishnu http://blog.saarang.org/online-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-176 Vishnu Sat, 16 Jan 2010 16:06:19 +0000 http://blog.saarang.org/?page_id=42#comment-176 Social Security Number in US and National Insurance Number in UK do not have biometric data stored in them. The concept of biometric check is the heart of UID. If biometric check is eliminated the system will become less complex and the cost of the project will be much lesser. But then its tall clams will no longer hold. Again remember that the population of India is nearly 20 times as that of UK and the social conditions we have in our country is much more diverse and complex. The existing technology for biometric checks even in small scale have encountered substantial technological and operational problems and this is definitely going get amplified when it is scaled up. In India we need to scale up this technology to handle 1.2 billion people. Social Security Number in US and National Insurance Number in UK do not have biometric data stored in them. The concept of biometric check is the heart of UID. If biometric check is eliminated the system will become less complex and the cost of the project will be much lesser. But then its tall clams will no longer hold. Again remember that the population of India is nearly 20 times as that of UK and the social conditions we have in our country is much more diverse and complex.

The existing technology for biometric checks even in small scale have encountered substantial technological and operational problems and this is definitely going get amplified when it is scaled up. In India we need to scale up this technology to handle 1.2 billion people.

]]> Comment on Online Debate Topic 1 by Medha! http://blog.saarang.org/online-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-175 Medha! Sat, 16 Jan 2010 09:31:31 +0000 http://blog.saarang.org/?page_id=42#comment-175 I am not contesting that there are not going to be any hurdles, technological or otherwise. What I am contesting, however, is that the risk is worth taking, for it is a well-informed risk, not only because we have the best brains working for us, but also because, as Nandan Nilekani remarked in the Devil’s Advocate, the technology needed exists, it just has to be scaled up. Of course, it is an ambitious, such a project has never been undertaken. But the issue at hand is its necessity. Both UK and USA, the “developed” countries that have dropped similar projects, have dropped issuing the card. They, however, have a number that they identify the residents with. The social security number of the USA and the national insurance number of the UK (both of which have become de facto National Identification Numbers) are similar to the UID number that the UIDAI proposes. As for the speed involved with the granting of the UID, are you opposing it because the verification might take lets say a day or two as opposed to the 15 days or more that the other proofs take? With this, when the authenticity of the UID is considered, I don’t see how you have a case. You seemed to have misunderstood my point about the BPL. While 25% of the people are BPL, 20% belong to the middle and high income groups, 55% remain poor. Out of these 700 million people in India do not even have a legal identity, which means, 700 million people are outside the system. What the UID proposes to do is give them an identity, so they are eligible to the benefits offered by the government. I am not contesting that there are not going to be any hurdles, technological or otherwise. What I am contesting, however, is that the risk is worth taking, for it is a well-informed risk, not only because we have the best brains working for us, but also because, as Nandan Nilekani remarked in the Devil’s Advocate, the technology needed exists, it just has to be scaled up. Of course, it is an ambitious, such a project has never been undertaken. But the issue at hand is its necessity. Both UK and USA, the “developed” countries that have dropped similar projects, have dropped issuing the card. They, however, have a number that they identify the residents with. The social security number of the USA and the national insurance number of the UK (both of which have become de facto National Identification Numbers) are similar to the UID number that the UIDAI proposes.
As for the speed involved with the granting of the UID, are you opposing it because the verification might take lets say a day or two as opposed to the 15 days or more that the other proofs take? With this, when the authenticity of the UID is considered, I don’t see how you have a case.
You seemed to have misunderstood my point about the BPL. While 25% of the people are BPL, 20% belong to the middle and high income groups, 55% remain poor. Out of these 700 million people in India do not even have a legal identity, which means, 700 million people are outside the system. What the UID proposes to do is give them an identity, so they are eligible to the benefits offered by the government.

]]> Comment on Online Debate Topic 1 by Vishnu http://blog.saarang.org/online-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-174 Vishnu Sat, 16 Jan 2010 07:38:23 +0000 http://blog.saarang.org/?page_id=42#comment-174 And about the 75% of the Indian population above poverty line (the absolute majority as you call it)...see Ms.Medha, just because a person come above BPL does not mean that he is well off. Only 20% of the Indian population comes under the classification of middle and high income group (world economic outlook database September 2006). So it is not fair to say that we cannot just stop by thinking JUST ABOUT BPL category. In fact their problems are the key issues which need to be addressed immediately. And about the 75% of the Indian population above poverty line (the absolute majority as you call it)…see Ms.Medha, just because a person come above BPL does not mean that he is well off. Only 20% of the Indian population comes under the classification of middle and high income group (world economic outlook database September 2006). So it is not fair to say that we cannot just stop by thinking JUST ABOUT BPL category. In fact their problems are the key issues which need to be addressed immediately.

]]> Comment on Online Debate Topic 1 by Vishnu http://blog.saarang.org/online-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-173 Vishnu Sat, 16 Jan 2010 07:25:14 +0000 http://blog.saarang.org/?page_id=42#comment-173 Are you arguing that UK dropped this project because they didn’t have access to people of the status of Nandan Nilekani to head the project?. Quoting R. Ramakumar of Tata Institute of Social Scinences Mumbai "The fact that the UIA is to be headed by a technocrat like Nilekani, and not a demographer, is evidence to this biased view of the government. The problems of enumeration in a society like India’s, marked by illegal immigration as well as internal migration, especially of people from poor labour households, are too enormous to be handled effectively by a technocrat. It is intriguing that the duties of the Census Registrar and the UIA Chairperson have been demarcated, and that the UIA Chairperson has been placed as a Cabinet Minister above the Census Registrar." Whoever may be the big brains working behind the project a slight failure in any of the technological components may immediately affect underlying confidence of people in the scheme as a whole. I'll summarize the technological hurdles in the implementation of this project which may help you to get clearer picture of why it is not as simple as it looks. Volume: Creating and managing a database of 1.2 billion people spread over a huge area will involve immense work. Around five megabytes of data will be required to store the compressed fingerprint images of each individual, meaning the size of the entire database will be at least six petabytes (6,000 terabytes, or 6,000,000 gigabytes), making it among the world’s largest databases. Speed: Each new entry has to be validated against existing entries to remove the possibility of duplication. Over the next few years, this would mean comparing each new application against, say, one billion entries in the database at a reasonable speed. Also, the UIDAI proposes online authentication through cellphones and using basic technology. While authentication is a simpler process, the proposed time of three to four seconds for the same makes it challenging. Security: Dealing with sensitive information, it has to include security features that will ward off hackers. The robustness of the system under full operation, with possibly thousands of queries every second, will also have to be factored in. Biometrics: A Biometrics Committee has been set up to look into the issue of the final set of biometrics used. Due to the criticism that biometric readers are not fool proof, Nilekani is also planning to add iris scan data in addition to biometric readers. While this will increase the size of the database, there will also be problems relating to the equipment required for the iris scan (no need to mention the associated costs) Are you arguing that UK dropped this project because they didn’t have access to people of the status of Nandan Nilekani to head the project?.

Quoting R. Ramakumar of Tata Institute of Social Scinences Mumbai “The fact that the UIA is to be headed by a technocrat like Nilekani, and not a demographer, is evidence to this biased view of the government. The problems of enumeration in a society like India’s, marked by illegal immigration as well as internal migration, especially of people from poor labour households, are too enormous to be handled effectively by a technocrat. It is intriguing that the duties of the Census Registrar and the UIA Chairperson have been demarcated, and that the UIA Chairperson has been placed as a Cabinet Minister above the Census Registrar.”

Whoever may be the big brains working behind the project a slight failure in any of the technological components may immediately affect underlying confidence of people in the scheme as a whole.

I’ll summarize the technological hurdles in the implementation of this project which may help you to get clearer picture of why it is not as simple as it looks.

Volume: Creating and managing a database of 1.2 billion people spread over a huge area will involve immense work. Around five megabytes of data will be required to store the compressed fingerprint images of each individual, meaning the size of the entire database will be at least six petabytes (6,000 terabytes, or 6,000,000 gigabytes), making it among the world’s largest databases.

Speed: Each new entry has to be validated against existing entries to remove the possibility of duplication. Over the next few years, this would mean comparing each new application against, say, one billion entries in the database at a reasonable speed. Also, the UIDAI proposes online authentication through cellphones and using basic technology. While authentication is a simpler process, the proposed time of three to four seconds for the same makes it challenging.

Security: Dealing with sensitive information, it has to include security features that will ward off hackers. The robustness of the system under full operation, with possibly thousands of queries every second, will also have to be factored in.

Biometrics: A Biometrics Committee has been set up to look into the issue of the final set of biometrics used. Due to the criticism that biometric readers are not fool proof, Nilekani is also planning to add iris scan data in addition to biometric readers. While this will increase the size of the database, there will also be problems relating to the equipment required for the iris scan (no need to mention the associated costs)

]]> Comment on Online Debate Topic 1 by Medha! http://blog.saarang.org/online-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-172 Medha! Sat, 16 Jan 2010 05:07:58 +0000 http://blog.saarang.org/?page_id=42#comment-172 Lets do a background check on the people heading UIDAI. Nandan Nilekani - former chairman, INFOSYS, one of the best IT companies in India that has received acclaim from people all over the world and also awarded prizes for their innovation in technology. Nandan Nilekani is also an IIT graduate who co-founded NASSCOM. The second, Bill Gates, who expressed his keenness to be a part of the project. Gates, presently the chairman and the Chief Software Architect of Microsoft, needs no introduction for he is considered to be an integral part of the personal computer revolution. When you have such luminaries, who have emerged into the public light from the field of technology, you can be rest assured that they will take all the necessary precautions to secure safety and ensure the implementation of the best technology. Lets do a background check on the people heading UIDAI. Nandan Nilekani – former chairman, INFOSYS, one of the best IT companies in India that has received acclaim from people all over the world and also awarded prizes for their innovation in technology. Nandan Nilekani is also an IIT graduate who co-founded NASSCOM. The second, Bill Gates, who expressed his keenness to be a part of the project. Gates, presently the chairman and the Chief Software Architect of Microsoft, needs no introduction for he is considered to be an integral part of the personal computer revolution.
When you have such luminaries, who have emerged into the public light from the field of technology, you can be rest assured that they will take all the necessary precautions to secure safety and ensure the implementation of the best technology.

]]> Comment on Online Debate Topic 2 by acai berry http://blog.saarang.org/online-debate-topic-2/comment-page-1/#comment-170 acai berry Fri, 15 Jan 2010 17:52:46 +0000 http://blog.saarang.org/online-debate-topic-2/#comment-170 I enjoy this comment. Thanks for having it star in its own post. I get uneasy when I see fierce righteous mobs hurrying to open purses of feathers and warm up the tar. So often we figure only a tiny part of the write up and alternatively we let angriness do the thinking for us. I enjoy this comment. Thanks for having it star in its own post. I get uneasy when I see fierce righteous mobs hurrying to open purses of feathers and warm up the tar. So often we figure only a tiny part of the write up and alternatively we let angriness do the thinking for us.

]]> Comment on Online Debate Topic 1 by Vishnu http://blog.saarang.org/online-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-169 Vishnu Fri, 15 Jan 2010 17:50:09 +0000 http://blog.saarang.org/?page_id=42#comment-169 44 million Americans are victims of identity thefts that happen on the internet, every year?..wow. I was not aware of this. But if your statistics are true then it backs my concerns of the possiblity people trying to hacking into the UID system (especially when the potential benefits of doing so is much higher). 44 million Americans are victims of identity thefts that happen on the internet, every year?..wow. I was not aware of this. But if your statistics are true then it backs my concerns of the possiblity people trying to hacking into the UID system (especially when the potential benefits of doing so is much higher).

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